thanks happy!! Doug, I can get all the hide and tails I want, but haven't messed with them in a while. I just froze them and when I was tying, I would take one out and use it, no splitting the tail and drying it etc. there is a guy down in north carolina that uses small 1/16 and 3/32 white bucktails for crappies, he uses red thread and most the time leaves the head bare, he casts, counts down to desired depth and retreives them over brush piles and catches thousands of crappies each year this way, I tied a bunch up one time but never used them much, altho I did catch some crappies in a pond with them.