Congrats to The Democrats

Bucho

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Generally speaking, the doctors here prescribe drugs and treatments that are listed on a catalogue, approved by a gremium under governmental controll. If a treatment is not on the list, you´r not beeing granted it as it is uncommon to pay one´s own expenses. If it is on the list, you don´t have to pay extra.

The beauty of this:
If they let someone die because the treatment that would have saved that person was too expensive, and the family slipped that to the media, there would be about 60.000.000 voters who might find that interesting as they or their family could be effected themselfes.

Gives you some leverage.
 

Hawnjigs

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I don't have a clue about the political climate in Germany, but here in the US we appear to have a two party system with extreme divergency on issues. Its absurd that congressional votes are often split strictly across party lines. Many partisan supporters consider legislators that choose to vote based on rational and conscientious assessment of issues contrary to their party positions as traitors - I think they are heroes concerned with the best interests of our country instead of their puppet masters.

Outright lies by political figureheads are acceptable and apparently not verified by party supporters. Re: healthcare, here is an example.
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/hea...est_health_care_in_the_world_you_judge_1.html
 

Hawnjigs

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Wow, this gets even more interesting. The Heritage Foundation report on ACA health care cost increases has been debunked as a LIE. Info is online for those interested.

Interested in who the Heritage Foundation represents, found that it has received 2.7 million $ in funding from the Koch bros. Digging further, found that David Koch ran for VP of the USA as a Libertarian in 1980. Their platform including dismantling:

Social Security
the Federal Reserve Board
welfare
the minimum wage
corporate taxes
the SEC
the EPA
the FTC
OSHA
the FBI
the CIA
the Dept of Energy
public schools
 

hookup

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Just like Canada, socialized medicine's great as a preventative measure, but just don't get sick.
 

Hawnjigs

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Perused a fair # of online articles about Canada health care, this one seems the simplest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-know-about-canadian-health-care-in-one-post/

This article about health insurance executive compensation was most disturbing because it states the necessity of denying claims to maintain those salaries.
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Top-health-insurance-bosses-earn-millions-4592322.php

I really, really don't understand opposition to gov funded health care since even the insured haves ignoring the have nots are just as vulnerable to financial ruin in our for profit health insurance system. Another article mentioned that health care debt was insrumental in around half of bankruptcy filings.

In retrospect, Boehner and McConnell weren't lying about the USA having the best health care system in the world - they were just referring to their own GOVERNMENT FUNDED health coverage.
 

papaperch

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Its really simple . We as a nation cannot afford it. We are broke as it is and The Dems who are in power now have no interest in even slowing the rate of spending.

While emotionally it might make us all " feel " good about everyone being covered with health care. The government is NOT the entity to do it.

I asked before for all those in a hurry to socialize our health care.

NAME ME ONE JUST ONE PROGRAM THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES WELL. You can research all you want but the answer is none.
They can't even get the sign up web site right. Can you imagine the mess in determining whose is going to get what care and when ? Canadian health is often held up as a gleaming example. Please explain all the Canadians who come to the Cleveland Clinic.

Right now we can still choose between privately supplied health care and government supplied. But the only way this is going to work is if we go to a single payer system which will be the government. I am on medicare but my wife is not. We found a better private program a 100.00 less a month than the rate offered by the ACA. Not only cheaper but a better plan that is even with a subsidy which she qualifies for.

As for lying the next time Pelosi , Obama or Reid tell the truth it will be a first. The ACA still exempts Congress and the President from it. By the way the first government figure in the world to propose governmental health care was Joseph Stalin. Anyone want to hold him up as a kindly and well meaning soul ?

I think its a great idea to try and provide health care for all our citizens but at this point in time it is just not something we as a country can afford. My heart goes out to Smalljaw who was financially ruined by a very cruel disease. But the truth is as Obama care is configured he would have been worse off under the government program.

This is the last post I am going to make on this thread. Too much emotionalism has been injected for me. The final figures of the cost of this program the ACA is supposed to be close to three trillion dollars. That is not from any political faction but from the HBO. Which is the house budget office which is normally spot on.

Lastly no administration figure will release information on how many people have been signed up so far. Even the talking head Sebilus in a tv interview said she did not know. Excuse me you run the program and you do not know even an approximate number. Sorry but my common sense tell me that she can't tell a truth either. Either the numbers are so low they don't want to reveal them. The other possibility is they are too stupid to find out. The other figure that stunned even me. People who are not insured before ACA 30,000,000. By the year 2018 and ACA fully implemented number of people who are not insured 30,000,000.
Good luck to all of us we are going to need it. Lets all check back on this thread at the end of 2014 and see what we think then.
 

JSC

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IMHO
With what we have had before this ACA.
If You need health care and could not pay for it you were still taken care of .. Know those big prices that we pay .. part of that is to make up for the free care that is given ...
2 things that needed to be changed with what we had =
1. Health Insurance across state lines to be the same from every company .. this makes real competition and should bring the prices down or it will make it available for those who are now considered uninsurable.
2. Tort reform ... that has run up the cost more than we have any idea.
------------------
We have Medicade, Medicare to fill in some of these "blanks" ..
------------------
Lets face it ... "Control" is what "They" want as well as more money for another "to fail" Gov. Program ..
--------
"They" are doing this in the name of doing good ... how many times have they carried us down that fictious road .... If they really cared we have 30 million uninsurable according to them .... They have spent more than 60 million just to promote this plan .. now if they took 30 million of that and put in a fund for the 30 million uninsurable would have made sense ... When Have "They" done anything that they really promoted that made sense when it was all over .... How many million for a web site program that is a pure "Flop" .. do any of you think that the program will be any better ??

Off of Soap Box ...

(note we are going to pay more and get less for out money plus the control they will have on you from cradle to grave) ..
Little side note i heard today ... there WEB Site is "Not Secure" ... Any information you enter in it will be like announcing it to the world .. (good Source this AM on local talk show)
 

Radtexan

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Ive stayed out of this for the most part but JSC and PP hit it on the head IMO.

This whole "train wreck" was started (promised) to get the 30 million, uninsured citizens,,,,,,,,,,,,,, INSURED....Not to reform any health care.
Just wait to see how much that number changes in the near future.And the cost to small business,big business,individual family's and all those NOT EXEMPT will be very painful.

"Glitches" in the roll out is a very small sampling of what is to come.




 

AtticaFish

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I knew that was gonna happen. Always does when ever politics get involved. At this point, not sure what else we can all do but wait it out and see how many Babyruths end up floating in the pool.

papaperch said:
......Too much emotionalism has been injected......

I do very highly agree with Hawn about not understanding why there is so much division that cuts so precisely down party lines in the Legislative branch of our government. I hate the political labels because my beliefs make me straddle the line over many of the 'hot button' topics that might come up in any politically motivated discussion........ as a result, neither party likes me. :D The entire political division trickles down and often causes dis-agreements among friends because they feel as though they have to defend their party even when they might only halfheartedly agree to an individual principal.

Politics are crazy - i just keep offering drinks till no one cares any more. :beer:

:beer: :beer:

:beer: :beer: :beer:
 

Radtexan

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AtticaFish said:
as a result, neither party likes me. :D

Politics are crazy - i just keep offering drinks till no one cares any more. :beer:

:beer: :beer:

:beer: :beer: :beer:
I still like ya,and will take another..... ;)



 

Hawnjigs

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Sorry Papa, didn't mean to get irate, but new discoveries get me worked up. And, its really true, they're all liars at the top, just some more often than others.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/harry-reid/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/nancy-pelosi/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/john-boehner/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/ted-cruz/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/

I did run across an international comparative chart online that showed that the USA is at the top for malpractice litigation, so I agree that tort reform could save us ALL some $. I also think the mounting # of medical bankrupties, projected to be 1.7 million this year is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Papa, not being argumentative, but since you asked, I appreciate Social Security, Medicare, National Parks, Interstate highways, safe and timely airline travel, just off the top. But in the case of the ACA website fiasco, I think some heads should roll.
 

smalljaw

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There is one correction I need to make, and that is that if you get sick and cannot afford medical insurance then you get treated for free, that is an out right lie, sorry. If you make $9.00/hr, you make too little to afford health insurance but you make too much to get Medicaid, if you get sick you get minimal treatment and then billed, if you get catastrophically sick, like cancer, you will rack up massive bills and you will only get about 1/4 of the treatment and when you can't come up with 50% of your bill the treatment will stop, I know this for fact as I witnessed it and tried to raise money for another person in that exact scenario in the area I live. I also know this because, as I said, my home was paid for and I had exactly $109,884.27 in my retirement savings, when I got cancer and couldn't work with the treatment I was paid $250.00 per week from my short term disability policy but out of that came my taxes and my medical insurance which left me with $101 dollars a week while it was costing me 452 dollars per week at the pharmacy. I had what is referred to as a "Cadillac" insurance plan, no deductible, and only a $20 dollar co-pay, this was on top of a good wage so I had to pay my bills and most of my meds out of pocket because I had a retirement account so I didn't qualify for any help. That said, what most don't know is that the 23 most common types of cancer drugs are NOT covered under any insurance plan, if you believe you have this coverage, well I pray you don't get sick, I had a separate cancer plan but it only paid for 1 drug, neulasta, which is to build white blood cells while going through chemo and it only pays it for a year, those shots are $4000 per shot for 12 shots or 6 months worth of chemo. I had to pay out of my pocket and within a year and a half I was forced to file for bankruptcy, I lost my new truck, and I sold my boat before that happened but I even had to put my house up for collateral to continue my radiation because my treatment was over a half of a million dollars and the insurance company decided they were not going to pay for anything else cancer related. I do not like obamacare, I agree with you all on that and I do not want socialized medicine, what I want is a law saying that insurance companies have to cover you if you have a plan and they can't just say no, there also needs to be some kind of cap, why in the world should someone have to loose their life savings just to stay alive? I pray nobody else goes through what I did, and I consider myself lucky, I'm alive and I still have my house along with a PC and an internet connection and I can now afford to make jigs and stuff but not like I could, buying a new mold is a 4 to 5 month saving deal, going fishing is tough but keeps me going but I can't do it every day, I'm lucky if I can muster the strength to go every 10 days but at least I can go. I do not mean to make others mad, I simply want to inform those who haven't had a catastrophic illness to the realities of what happens, at one time you could at least keep your home but no longer, my republican congressman voted to make my home expendable should I get sick and can not afford to pay my hospital bill, so that if my cancer comes back, even with medicare, I can not get treated because I can't afford the 20% medicare doesn't pay and the hospital can now take my home which is why I will never vote republican again. I was a republican throughout my life, I hate democrats just as bad and so I had to change my registration to independent, they made this system to run for office so expensive that only wealthy individuals can run or those who are shills looking to do the bidding of whoever foots the bill for the campaign. Working people have solutions, but they can't afford to run and now it is worse as we do free trade deals with countries who have a slave labor force and/or are communist countries, this too has to stop and make the American worker a commodity again so that wages will allow people to pay for healthcare, that is the biggest thing right now but don't be fooled, voting republican or democrat is like picking the lesser of 2 evils.
 

JSC

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Smalljaw ... glad I hit your "Hot Button" as I know you have been thru some hard times.
When I said "they will get taken care of" was in general terms ... I will not go into some extensive (and expensive) medical problems encounter in my family. But haveing said that I know of many that got taken care of ... unlike You -- They Did Not Have Anything To Start With ... If You do have anything they will not (as You know) "Blink an Eye" in takeing it and any thing else they can get. In one case (operation on wife) I gave them the Policy information on one policy when she went in .. when I checked her out they wanted more money so I gave them the Money and information on a 2nd policy .. This messed up their whole billing system and I wound up with a refund (took 3 months) ... They must have a lot of percentages figured into that billing system .. My brother took care of handling my Mothers long term Medical expense and it was a job in its on ...

There is a lot of Polotics being Displayed ... The few Poloticaians that really care are out numbered (this is both Parties) and do not have enough power to do any thing ... I call my self a true "Right Wing Conservative" .. Been studying and watching this stuff for MANY YEARS ... many of the predictions that were made back in the 30's (I was a little kid then) have come true as to the direction this nation has gone.

I really wish there was more I could have done, as I hate to know of what is going to happen to you younger guys (my kids and grand kids included)

Again "Nuff" said off of "Soap Box"

Good Luck To All

 

AtticaFish

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I must say, with how flammable this subject is, i am very happy to see so many words typed in this open discussion with out people calling each other idiots and slamming doors. Goes to show that when people aren't yelling and screaming at each other - even if not a single mind is changed - it allows EVERYONE to listen.

Here you go Roger.....

:cheers:



Radtexan said:
AtticaFish said:
as a result, neither party likes me. :D

Politics are crazy - i just keep offering drinks till no one cares any more. :beer:

:beer: :beer:

:beer: :beer: :beer:
I still like ya,and will take another..... ;)

 

Bucho

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Hows this:

-(non profit-) insurance is compulsory. No one is without. Minimum coverage is being defined by a comitty under governmental controll.
-when your employed, the premiums are being deducted according to /from your pay by your employer. When your unemployed, they are being payed by the unemployment office that writes your cheques. When your´re on welfare, they pay your premiums (not the hospital bills!) together with the welfare cheque. Same goes for unability, retirement etc. Freelancers are being charged according to their last tax declaration.
-No one is left behind, no "tap" is to be picked up by the state or written off by the hospital itself.
- Additional coverage for private practice, single bed room etc. can be bought on top, on a private, voluntary basis.

Its not perfect but thought through in a way. Works for us. Not yet socialised but it takes the edge of.

Major drawback: Its rises labour costs. Combined with tax, retirement- disability and unemployment insurance, you don´t get out half the money that your employer has to spend on your total wage in the first place. With an estimated 50% of German citizens being 60 and older in the year 2030, this is becoming an issue.
To justify the high wages, there´s a whole lot of value and efficiency to be put into the 38,5 hours of weekly work pensum the unions have fought throug, resulting in a dozen(!) times more nervous breakdowns than what had been reported 20 years ago.
 

Hawnjigs

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Being politically unattached, I perceive the Obamacare furor as a smokescreen to hook partisans of both parties into emotional confrontations distracting from issues that need more attention. I've also observed that the outward Repub-Dem battleground is actually the 1% vs 99% and the only reason for my seemingly political postings is a request to consider a deeper core viewpoint beyond party lines.

For anyone interested in how Wall St. is quietly dismantling banking reform and consumer protection this was news to me.
http://www.thenation.com/article/174113/how-wall-street-defanged-dodd-frank#




 

Hawnjigs

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Bucho, is the "non-profit" insurance administered by a private company(s)? If so, is it cost effective, ie: no complaints about bloated executive compensation like in the USA? How satisfied with the system are your fellow citizens?
 

jiggerjohn

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It's always my opinion that we all should go fishing & ignor politics altogether! I'm convinced ,anyway, that all these charades such as health care, the gov shutdown, elections, etc are merely DISTRACTIONS, which keep people from noticing the true thefts, set up by the big money people who really run things. Heck, after the recent costly shutdown farce, no one should ever vote for ANY Repub or Dem that is currently "serving" ! Yet the two party system continues to have members constantly pointing blame at the other side, and the sheeple voting party lines &keeping the same crooks in office, no matter how badly their own leaders have fleeced them.
 

Bucho

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Hawnjigs said:
Bucho, is the "non-profit" insurance administered by a private company(s)? If so, is it cost effective, ie: no complaints about bloated executive compensation like in the USA? How satisfied with the system are your fellow citizens?

Its a whole bunch of historically grown institutions for different regions and professions (workers/office employees/sailors/ etc. ). It used to be over a hundred, which have now been reduced to 3 or 4 dozen since there is no need for such diversity, each with their own board etc. if they don´t really compete. General funding has finally been brought under state control but they´re still independend in a way. Even more socialistion would meen they would have to be granted governmental employee benefits. :D
There are bloated structures and inefficency of course, but no compare to "real" private enteties. On the one hand, when they need more money, they simply ask the lawmakers to rise the quote. On the other hand, if there´s a surplus, it has to go back to the members. No chance to justify outraged bonuses or an overpaid managment. They simply cannot say "we made the money" since everybody knows they collected it from the members and have to give it back to them one way or the other.

People nickname them So.f.a. (Sozialversicherungsfachangestellte), envying their lack of competition and general pace of work, but on some level they all agree it could be far worse.
BTW Norway is filthy rich, they are spilling over with oil money, not a good compare.
 

Radtexan

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Hawn I know you really like to do your research,and Id encourage you to look at some actual facts about what the ACA is really doing to insurance rates around the country.Not even taken in to account what it may or may not be doing to the job market or hiring or cutting work staff or hours to comply with this new law.Just what it has done to rates,that were promised to reduce the American family's rate by 2500 per family.

http://www.heritage.org/

just a few:
45 out of 50 states have increases instead of decreases in premiums as promised....
Alabama age 27 +31%
Alabama age 50 +29.2%
Alaska age 27 +72.5%
Alaska age 50 + 46.2 %
Arizona age 27 +156.7 %
Arizona age 50 +41.7%
Arkansas age 27 +171.4%
Arkansas age 50 +79.1%

Not even out of the A's yet...




 
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