Congrats to The Democrats

[papaperch]

Upon winning the majority in the house to go along with the senate and the presidency. While it appeared that the Republicans outnumbered the Dems in the house. The way they voted the R behind their name means nothing.

The American people have been backdoored and closed door dealt down the river once again.

The Affordable Care Act was funded and the debt limit was raised again. Common sense would tell any logical person that a debt limit should be just that. The Affordable Care Act ( Obama Care ) is neither affordable or about health care.

One ugly truth is the A.C. A. does NOT limit your out of pocket expenses.
The tiered plan call for four levels, bronze , silver , gold and platinum .
The Bronze calls for a 60/40 the Silver calls for a 70/30. Meaning that if you are faced with a hospital bill of 150,000. Your share under the Bronze plan would be 60,000 the Silver level 45,000.

Even the poorest of people who would have the lions share of their premiums covered by the government would still be held responsible for these huge bills. To reach a 150,000 bill in the hospital is rather common under certain types of illnesses.

If you don't believe me go to the health care.gov . Don't worry it can't sign you up yet. In fact the site itself refers you to a Keough site that has the costs of your care. Read this real careful and plug in some values to see what your premiums would be. They will also let you know if you qualify for subsidies also. In my wifes case she qualified for a 53 % subsidy, Her monthly cost would have been 275 after the subsidy. For the 70/30 silver plan.

Remember they have had 3 1/2 years and have spent 189 million on a website that doesn't work. They blamed high traffic of 8 million plus. Bear in mind Amazon handles 20 million visitors a day with no problems. If they can't even set up a web site how can anyone expect. That they would have the ability to handle our health needs.

The new media is trumpeting this as a huge Republican loss. The real loser is the American people. When this kicks in 2014 the majority of us will realize this as fact.

 

[Hawnjigs]

Regardless what y'all think, I consider myself conservative, and am disappointed that the Republican party starting with the Bush admin prioritized wealthy-corporate agendas at the expense of ME. Of course, both R & D admins bailed out Wall St. so I don't support either party.

I am appalled that $189,000,000.00 might have been wasted on a non-functioning website - will have to check on that.

I don't have time to dig for details, but wouldn't a debt default be catastrophic?

 

[Hawnjigs]

Luckily, found this article that seemed to be more concerned about accurate info reporting than partisan political bashing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-behind-the-botched-launch-of-healthcare-gov/
Indeed, PapaP, it appears that a healthy chunk of the ACA website contract was awarded to a FOREIGN company with a record of FAILURE in it's own country for similar services.

 

[AtticaFish]

Congrats to the Democrats who pushed it....... or congrats to everyone else who did not oppose it? I am probably wrong, but stay with me here. I truly do not think the D's outnumber the R's nationwide to the tune that they can simply pull the trigger and make things happen against the will of the other half of the country. I really believe, in this particular issue, that the vast majority agree that SOMETHING needs to be done with healthcare and simply no one has an answer. If lots of people agree there needs to be a fix, but they are all on the fence as to what to do............. some tend to lean a little to the first idea they hear. The rest sit on their hands and do not do anything while the other side of the fence gives it a try. I believe that is what is happening now. No clue how it will turn out, but the actual insurance side of things is only part of the overall healthcare problem. The Doc's overcharge because they have to fight for every dollar the Ins. pays back. Patented prescriptions are outrageously over priced. Not to mention the ambulance chasers and people who abuse the system. In itself, i think healthcare is the PERFECT definition of a vicious circle. There is sooooooooo much to fix.

I have not dug in too deeply, but isn't there a limit to the annual out of pocket expense for the ACA? The example you used that said $60K-$45K out of pocket seems crazy. To any young, healthy person - insurance is more for in the case of an emergency than anything. I was in an extensive auto accident when i was in my early 20's so i know how quickly the bills can add up. If there was not an out of pocket limit...... makes me wonder what would be the purpose of ANY young/healthy person buying insurance? If the healthy do not buy a policy for 'in case of emergency' reasoning, the policies for the sick go bankrupt.

Very sad to see a Canadian Co. designed and built the mainframe for something that is so huge and fundamental. Wouldn't this count as too big a deal to be farmed out and fail? That is rather upsetting.

 

[papaperch]

Hawn- Imagine for a moment you are married to a woman. Each year you make more money but each year she exceeds your income by 30-40% At the end of every year you have to go borrow to make to next year. At some point the creditors have to cut you off and say no more. That point is reached when your income and total worth is exceeded by a certain percentage. How long do you remain married to that woman ?

Our nations income is labeled as GNP or Gross National Product. When our debt exceeds that by a certain amount our creditors are going to react the same way. Or the entire GNP will be needed just to pay the interest and all the other obligations will have to be financed accelerating our financial demise.

The entire media ( even Fox news ) is persuaded by " beltway thinking ". In that government is so necessary for our every day functions that we would collapse without every facet of it. Remember all the " doomsday predictions" about the sequester cuts. I will venture to guess that more than 95% of us never even noticed it. It is no accident that the highest income counties are now centered around Washington DC , Maryland and Northern Virginia. Can someone name one governmental program that runs efficiently and on budget every year ?

The Federal government now takes in more a day than it ever has in any time period. Yet they keep demanding more. Our cash is being burnt to feed a run-away -fire. While some will say that there is no great difference in the two parties. At least some Republicans voted against last night surrender. To a man every one of the house democrats voted for it.

Democrats do not want any kind of budget. In Obamas first two years the Dems had majorities in the House and Senate. In those 2 years we did not operate on any kind of budget , even though the Constitution requires it, which gives way to a whole other discussion. How come the Democrats never utter the phrase " law of the land " regarding our Constitution ? We heard the phrase every day when it came to the ACA. It did not take a fortune teller to see that problems would arise when the Republicans won back the House in 2010. By the way the two most villified men in the press Cruz and Lee were villified doing what their district elected them to do. What a novel concept doing in Washington exactly what you said you were going to to while they were electing you.

I know the vast majority of our members here detest political discussions and I respect that. In fact that was the way I used to be so how can I find fault with anyone else. As long as emotions are kept out of the discussion it does more good than harm. Ninety percent of what is going on today in Washington lies right at each our feet. In that we ignored all the shortcomings and absolute stupidity because we did not want to be bothered about it. Well the chickens are coming home to roost now and a lot of us are starting to wake up.

In closing the best example of what I am trying to say is when West Berlin/East Berlin were in existence. The capitalist west Germany and Berlin thrived economically while east Germany and Berlin were barely treading water. Lots of people risked their lives to flee to the west no one fled to the east.
Western Germany had little governmental restraints on it. The Eastern model was government planning from cradle to grave.

 

[toadfrog]

Oh brother I smell another argument brewing !

 

[AtticaFish]

I might disagree on points (would certainly expect to) but only arguments i might have are if i ever get papaperch out on a lake with me and he starts begging for some of my lures.... as i would out-fish him with my eyes closed, one hand behind my back, and not relent my secrets in the heat of the moment. But i still wouldn't blame him for trying.


I do agree that the spending is out of control, but i think both sides have blood on their hands as they all have their own personal agendas. I think there are very few 'politicians' that actually act on behalf of the general public.

I also agree that i do not want the government controlling every little nuance of my life, but i also feel there are some things that the Gov. might need to step in to control things from getting out of control. My father made an argument to me about how it was completely unfair that the government would get involved and say EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE insurance or get fined. He noted to me, that if he was in his prime age and healthy, he would not want Big Brother to say he had to have insurance or else pay a penalty. I had two replies to him..........

#1. I asked him if he thought it was wrong that the government (i believe it is at the state level i this case) requires you to have insurance to operate a motor vehicle or else you get fined? He simply told me that was different. haha!

#2. I asked him if when he was in his 20's (in his prime and healthy) did he go without medical insurance to save $$$? I know for a fact that he did not. He wanted it 'in case of emergency' like i mentioned earlier because he was raising a family. He did not answer me on that one, but i did already know the answer. Then he started telling me about a fishing trip he had the week before.

Now, this goes for those who can actually afford insurance. Those who physically can not work are the ones that need assistance. I waaaaay too often see people collect 'benefits' simply because they can get away with it and don't feel like working. That makes me sick and down right ticks me off in some cases. How about this for a way to save money....... require a drug and alcohol screening before any Medicaid, Foodstamps, Heating Bill Assistance, or any other tax funded benefits are handed out by the government.

 

[Radtexan]

Ive started three different reply's on this topic,but deleted all..

One of the best, by the numbers, descriptions Ive seen on BarryCare and from a non partisan viewpoint..Well worth the 9 minutes of your time when you have a chance.
[video=youtube]

 

[papaperch]

Some more math for thought but these are actual figures from government sites.

2008 2012

28.2 million 47.8 million US people on food stamps

4 million 12.8 million US people on welfare

11.9 % 14.4 % Black unemployment rate

8.2 % 15.5 % Female unemployment rate

What is ironic about these numbers is that President Obama and the Democratic Party expound that they are these factions champions. The minorities , females and especially the poor. With help ? like this for its constituents .

Another figure popped up during my research in 1945 at the end of world war II. Our national debt consumed 30.4 % of our GNP. Today it consumes over 34 % of our GNP. Something is wrong when your bill exceeds a time in our history we were fighting 2 super powers at that time.

Anyway with numbers like this and others that are much worse we the American people rehired the same performance. Any one else dread what these number are going to look like in 2016. There was a lot more ammo to post but if hit with too much the main issue gets glazed over.

AF- you may outfish me but heaven help you if try to out talk me LOL.

 

[Hawnjigs]

Well, I just wanna say that y'all are a great bunch & I respect every one of ya. Too bad partisan political agendas distract us from recognizing and addressing real problems and solutions. Sooo much wasted energy bashing puppets and not the string pullers.

What happened to US? We used to be fellow AMERICANS, now the needful of us are fair game as we cut food stamps, keep the minimum wage below poverty level, & begrudge them health care. Even Medicare & Social Security which I EARNED is now up for chops. Well, the billionaires pushing that agenda don't need any of that, right?

 

[Bucho]

from a distance, it pretty much boils down to this:

When a fish gets sick, the others will pick on it. When a dolphin gets sick, the others will nurse it, carry it to the surface to helpl it breath etc. Its what makes the difference between a food item and a creature we can sympathise with.

When a human being gets sick, its background will help. Costs will sum up. Its not a choice - not for us. I like the compare with the car insurance. The question is not if sickness causes expenses, but how these expenses are beeing divided up. In Scandinavia, they usually have tax-financed public healthcare. Its cost efficient, but not really good in quality. The rest of europe has some sort of more or less compulsory insurance. Ours here isn´t even that bad. It used to be compulsory with the exception of people with a high income or being self-employed, asuming that those individuals would be wealthy and responsible enough to cover their own expenses. With more and more people becoming self employed out of unemployment urges and cost exploding health care, it has recently been changed into all-compulsory insurance.

Whatever the funding is - if it is shared by too many people, there will be ineffectiveness and abuse. Its human nature to deal this way with other people`s money as soon as it becomes anonymious. This is not bound to governmental spending. It occurs with insurance and in the private sector, too.
Why do you think there is still no cure against HIV? A profit oriented entity spending millinons on developing a vaccine that offers -say- 50 $ of turnover for a dose, or even a treatment for 5.000$ to avoid a sickness that at the same time creates a monthly turnover of 1.000$ for another 20-30 years? Really? Out of people that are not exactly cancer-kids but mostly(!) promisciuos, drug addicts or sodomizing each other in a way that allows every other individial to make itself believe it couldn`t be affected itself?
Thats simply not how it works. At business school, in product development class, they call that a perfect "milk cow" and if a product manager spent money to kill it, his or her days in that pharma company - or the entire branch - were numbered.

There´s ineffectiveness in the private sector just like there is inhumanity in the public one. If somebody dropped from his chair in the former GDR, (east Germany), and you called for an ambulance, the first question was "how old?", meaning that a young person who holds more value for state and society would be preferred at receiving help.

Its a tricky issue and I have yet live to see a society that gets it fixed in a really satisfying way.

Personly, I find that as long as I have no choice about other people helping me into the hospital when they find me unconscious, I also have no choice in buying insurance or contributing to whatever other sort of health care.

 

[toadfrog]

Well guys I have felt pretty bad for sometime . My insurance denied a MRI and the price just went up to the point I would have had to pay half the cost . This all started with the healthcare changes . Guess now I have to live with it or not . Cause I'm not paying for more .

 

[LRB]

I don't understand this ObamaCare......I already have Medicare and Blue Cross/Blue Shield.....why would I want to sign up for ObamaCare...when I have good insurance...???.....:beat-up:



ML

 

[AtticaFish]

LRB - Don't think you have to change. As long as you have insurance, you are not going to get penalties. I think anyway. I honestly don't completely understand it all myself... have to trust my Ins. broker to some extent and just ask lots of questions.

toadfrog - That is a good example of over charging for a service. I realize the piece of equipment is vastly expensive.... wonder how many times that equipment has been paid for over and over when it is running non stop every day and charging thousands of dollars for each patient. Sad.

It does come down to human nature. I hope i didn't sounds to callous in my last post. I would love to help and support those who NEED it. People who are working and truly can not afford it, people who are physically unable to work, those who are dealt a crappy hand in life and need the help to get back on track. Yes, they need the help and i would be happy to support them. It is the ones who take advantage that make me upset.

Interesting to hear from Bucho who has Gov. run healthcare. Thanks for your reply. I have wondered what you think of your own system. You mention that it is cost efficient but not really good quality care...... What quality is lacking? Poor doctors? Lack of health equipment? Unable to get the care you want?

When it comes to healthcare, i do feel that we are only along for the ride. They are going to do what they want and we just have to do what they say. It is not a matter of if we get sick. It is a matter of when it happens and how bad it affects us both physically and in the pocket book.

 

[Bucho]

..
Interesting to hear from Bucho who has Gov. run healthcare. Thanks for your reply. I have wondered what you think of your own system. You mention that it is cost efficient but not really good quality care...... What quality is lacking? Poor doctors? Lack of health equipment? Unable to get the care you want?
..

Not exactly. In Germany we have a rather unique system, combined of non-profit, government controlled insurance institutions(historically one for the craftsmen, one for the sailors, one for the white collars etc...) and private insurance, I´ll spare you the details. I was referring to scandinavia. The other day I went to swedish summer-language school in Uppsala, preparing for a college exchange programm. I got a bad case of feverish tounsil trouble. So I went to the local health-care center and waited several hours to see some kind of auxiliary-nurse person. She shoved a test strip down my throat, mumbled something about "virus or bacteria", judged that it was not bacteria and refused to prescribe me antibiotics.
20 agonizing hours later I skipped farewell dinner, packed my stuff, hit the road back to my home town, saw a decent PHD free of charge and got the medication that helped me get better within in another 30hours. I later spoke about this with a swedish PHD and she told me this was a rather typical case of lack of skills in these centers.

As I said, its not perfect here either. Doctors are hindered by law to charge what they actually need, so they cheat to an extend that should be obvious to the insurances, who again can´t say anything because they have already been going with it for far too long, creating a climate of intransparency and distrust on every level. By accident, I once came across a hospital bill for a baby that was hospitalized over night for diarhia/dehydration. The 900$ bill included psychatric counselling(!). Sucker was 9 months old.
On the upside, they were running a highly professional, fully equipped hospital in a small town with 25.000inhabitad. Patients here are usuallly not being shown their bills. As I said, a lot of abuse and ineffectiveness, but it still works in a way that provides a good deal of comfort.There is good and bad in it. By compare, we are literally spoiled in a way that we expect everything to be done to keep us heatlhy - at no extra charge. At the same time, it is practically impossible to ruin yourself or your family with medical bills.

The monthly price for that is between 80$ for a student over 27, 180$ for a start-up like me (who knowns the system, it could as well have been 380...) and 600$ for a well earning employee. Generally 16% of income. Thats a house-hold perspective, including kids and non-earning spouses.

 

[Hawnjigs]

Altho I'm TRYING to examine issues objectively, many of us seem to be more comfortable with picking a side and only integrating evidence that supports their chosen party line agendas. For better or worse our President seems to have exacerbated partisan divisiveness.

Re: Euro health care: our CA Norwegian friends rave about the general quality of life in the "Old Country" including fully gov sponsored health and elderly care. On the other hand, I've heard several stories about local seniors losing life savings when commiting to managed care facilities became necessary.

Re: privately insured health care in the USA: I'm wondering how much of paid premiums is allocated for actual service rendered by care providers and how much is for administrative expense and profit? An aside is that the health "care" INDUSTRY relies on us getting sick to maintain profitability, hows that for irony?

I'd prefer to wait for actual implementation of the ACA before judging.

 

[hunter7711]

I received a letter from the VA this week telling me that I am fully covered and need do nothing. It also encouraged me to tell any vet I know to apply for benefits if they haven't already done it. No horse in this fight thanks to Viet Nam.

 

[LRB]

Check This Out....




http://www.heritage.org/multimedia/...s?utm_source=Reports&utm_medium=Social+Sharin

 

[smalljaw]

I will not take sides and I stayed out of this but I learned a lot about healthcare and there are a few ways to look at it and I don't like the ACA or obamacare or whatever anyone wants to call it but something has to be done for working class folks. For all who don't know, I have cancer, I'm in remission right now and I had some setbacks that made it difficult for me to work and now I'm on the system and it sucks as I feel rotten when I hear that I'm a leech. What I worry about is what gets lost in the bickering, I had a healthcare plan that was called a "Cadillac" plan, I ened up with cancer and only had $20 dollar co-pays, my insurance cover the treatment and the $4000 dollar shot of neulasta I had to get after each chemotherapy treatment and all my radiation, what they don't tell you is that 98% of the cancer drugs you will need are not covered under any insurance plan and that is what got me. Chemo is hard on all the organs in your body so you have to take meds for your kidneys, for your stomach for puking, for pain and then the radiation drugs, you see radiation is what causes sunburn, ever had a sunburn on your lung? It hurts and I've had that along with the lining of my esophagus burned off, and all this cost money that the insurance company doesn't want to pay even though my premiums were never missed. Anyway, my treatment cost $596,894.67, I had over $100,000 saved and I owned my home free and clear, I had a new truck and a boat and after 2 years I lost it all but my home, I had to file for bankruptcy and then fight for 5 years for disability even with 5 doctors and 2 reps from OVR who evaluated me to see what kind of work they could train me for, yep I did that on my own as I hated not being able to work and OVR told me with the meds and problems with the bones in my back slowly collapsing there was nothing more they could do and I had to accept that I could no longer go out in the work place, but I'm not done as I will find some job just not right now. Anyway, I said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who works and ends up with a serious illness can and most very likely will end up broke and it shouldn't be like that, why can an insurance company change their drug policy after you sign the dotted line? Why can they limit payout? I understand the free market and I don't want socialized medicine but I do want a policy that doesn't allow insurance companies to deny coverage after you get sick, that is something you may not know but I was still paying my premiums as the company I worked for kept me on the group and they gladly accepted my money and after my last radiation treatment they informed me they would no longer cover any medical problem that related to my cancer which meant any other medical problem could be said to be a result from my cancer and therefore I would be paying for nothing, yes, they can and will do this, I was lucky in that I got a letter stating this. I also don't think medical would be so much of a problem except we are told that paying for our own medical coverage is the best way to go and then our elected leaders starting with Clinton and then Bush, began pitting the American workers against people who lived in mud huts and had government provided healthcare by signing free trade agreements with communist countries. We are told to be more competitive while having to compete against people in slave labor camps working for $1.66 per month, how do you compete against that and still afford to pay medical insurance? My point is this, no matter how set in live you are, if you still need to work for a living all it will take is one serious illness that lasts for awhile and you have the possibility of losing everything you ever worked for, I was honest, I could have given away everything and transferred my money and property to friends and other family and then went on Medicaid and let the state pick up the tab but I didn't, I did end up on welfare for 7 months but 5 days after I got my disability awarded I got a letter from the inspector general about how much I owed and I paid it back, every red cent so I can say that. I'm with you in that I don't like obamacare at all but to do nothing at all is also wrong and if you think you will get through life without a major illness, well, so did I and with a very generous insurance plan I still went bankrupt with 100K in cash and probably 250K in assets and now I only have my home that is worth anything just because I got sick.

 

[Hawnjigs]

When we're relatively healthy, we think that our health insurance, or in my case Medicare is our parachute. Many, if not most of us, are unprepared for catastrophic illness - I know I'm not. Smalljaw's experience with denial of coverage and losing life savings apparently is common, as documented in "Sicko". Yah, I know, some won't believe a word Mr. Moore says cuz its not their party line.

Seems to me we have two alternatives in health care policy - bizness as usual private insurance managing our care and deciding to pay or not (free enterprise) which essentially means it might be better to die quickly than survive financially busted. The other is to study the government funded systems of other countries and devise our own BETTER one. As Bucho says "it is practically impossible to ruin yourself or your family with medical bills" in his country.

Funding? Well, that will be difficult since tax dodging wealthy individuals and bizness entities have successfully manipulated us to distraction, for example right now its ObamaCare. How many of us that are EMOTIONALLY blaming our President for ruining our country don't care about loopholes that allow the wealthy and corporations to stash profits tax free in foreign countries? Did we all forget how Wall St. suckered us out of TRILLIONS of $s that only trickled down into their own pockets? How about the phony intel invasion of Iraq which current cost is estimated to run 4-6 TRILLION figuring in future debt service expense?

Good thing some of our lawmakers are concerned about fiscal austerity, cutting 4 billion from the food stamp program.