Bill Barr - The Last Straw

[Bucho]

If the USA escalates military actions against Iran we will likely not have EU support and might provoke Muslim nations to form a defensive alliance.

Most likely indeed.  I would not give too much on the muslim brotherhood though. The split between sunnies and shias goes way deeper than the one between islam and the rest of the world. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Iran have the means to fully occupy each other`s territory though, so divide & conquer is the name of the game.

 

[Jig Man]

I like the brown people statement, sounds like George Carlin...LOL

 

[Hawnjigs]

Iran = 90% Shia.
Iraq = 2/3 Shia.

Americans are fleeing Iraq, or attempting to. Iran military strength is half million active + reserves.

 

[Bucho]

Ever since the textbook CIA regime change of `53, the Iranians have reason to consider the U.S. a thread to their independence for the sake of resources. Added 40 years of mullah regime celebrating a bloody insurgency, it is safe to say they are not your friends. Main reason for the landslide victories of ISIS in the region is the fear of Iraqi sunnies of being dominated and taken revenge on by a shias majority who on their part had been terrorized by sunnie bhat party who again used to be an U.S. allie until Saddam went too far and out of control like so many other sunnie allies the West has had in the region.

Running strategic foreing affairs there is a tricky business that can by no means be brought down to "Islam vs. the free world", that`s all I`m saying.

I have no idea what excactly has triggered the recent escalation which has lead to the attack on the U.S. embassy and the killing of that General, but it is well known to the world that Americans have a habit of standing behind their president in times of war. Trump is not the first POTUS who can count on that in times of impeachment or election, and it would only be wise for him to turn up the heat in one way or another.

 

[Hawnjigs]

After illegally and immorally invading Iraq based on lies fomented at the highest levels of the Bush-Cheney administration, the USA continues its military occupation. Once could speculate that given overwhelming evidence that war profiteers control our foreign policy the vulnerable remnants of our armed forces remaining in Iraq could be bait for an excuse to escalate USA military intervention.

Supposedly to "keep Americans safe". As if Iran & Iraq pose a threat to invade the USA.

I've already posted evidence of corruption in the USA "defense" industry and infiltration of industry's insiders to top adminstrative positions in the Department of Defense. Weapons mfg. and private military personnel support servers will continue their generosity in the political arena.

 

[Bucho]

jaja, the industry...

I hear the Iraqui parliament has resoluted to ask the U.S..- led coalition against Isis to leave the country. That would be the second time after Syria Trump is effectively giving ground to the very forces he is so committed to fight. How unfortunate!

 

[Hawnjigs]

I agree with my hardline Trump supporting friend Dwight that Iraq expelling USA military is an ideal opportunity for the USA to withdraw and by doing so appear on the world stage to cease meddling and cooperate with the wishes of a foreign country. But there are vested $ interests who would like to maintain and even escalate our military presence in Iraq and Trump has demonstrated which way he will swing.

As for "committed to fight" it is estimated that Iraq Shiite paramilitary troop strength = 500,000 and if they turn on Americans it will not go well for the USA.

Complicating the withdrawal the Iraq Sunni and Kurdish minorities declined to vote for USA military expulsion and may again become targets of Shiite aggression.

IMO anyone supporting the blatantly illegal assassination in Iraq is relying on the limited information being disseminated by the same Trump supporting media that lies, spins, and obscures relevant information to their own ends. Personally, I ignore any comments by politicians of both parties because the facts are out there better scrutinized without partisan bias.

 

[Jig Man]

Interesting that you mention Trump and Bush, but omitted President Obama. He was purdy good at targeting brown people too...

 

[Hawnjigs]

As I recall President Obama didn't start any wars, but he got stuck not only with Iraq & Afghanistan but the worst economic crash since the Great Depression.
He also averted hostilities with Iran by brokering the Iran Nuclear Deal with the cooperation of the UK, France, Germany, Russia, and China.

 

[Jig Man]

No he didn't start any wars, Trump hasn't either, but he did use the drone missile deal on a lot of people. He even commented that he was getting good at it. I know nothing I can say will change your mind, you are eaten up with TDS. But if you think other presidents, republican and democrat haven't done the same thing, protecting our boarders, you are mistaken.

Oh yea, have you heard anything going on with our southern boarder lately? You really need to watch other news besides MSM, they are lying to you!

 

[Bucho]

IMO anyone supporting the blatantly illegal assassination in Iraq is relying on the limited information being disseminated by the same Trump supporting media that lies, spins, and obscures relevant information to their own ends.  Personally, I ignore any comments by politicians of both parties because the facts are out there better scrutinized without partisan bias.

That "blatantly illegal assasination" hit the mastermind of the Iranian expansion that has caused thousendfold misery in Jemen, Syria, Lebanon and who knows elsewhere lately, not to speak of the attacks on oil tankers. IMO the question about that drone attack is not wether it was legitimite - the EU, including me, believes that it was - but wether it was wise and where it will lead us.

 

[Hawnjigs]

Given the USA & Iran are not at war how can killing General Soleimani not be considered a violation of international law, particularly without the consent of Iraq where the ASSASSINATION took place?  How would Germans react if USA General Petraeus responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraq civilians was killed by an Iraqi drone strike at Brandenburg Airport?

As for the wisdom of the ASSASSINATION:

"For years, support for Iran within Iraq has been falling sharply. With a majority of Iraqis—and even a majority of Iraqi Shiites—calling for a decreased Iranian presence, it seemed that Iraq was on the brink of genuinely positioning itself as an opposing Shiite-majority state that could have stood as a barrier to Iran’s genuine expansionist ambitions. But Donald Trump’s actions in attacking Shiite militia inside Iraq immediately flipped the concern of protesters away from Tehran and toward Washington. The assassination of Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani only put additional speed behind moves to expel U.S. troops from Iraq."

And as expected war profiteer industry representative Mark Esper head of the Dept. of Defense chimes in:

"On Tuesday afternoon, Defense Secretary Mark Esper took his turn at spinning chaos as if it were an intentional strategy. According to Esper, the United States is not withdrawing its forces from Iraq."

Bucho, I didn't realize that the EU supported the ASSASSINATION of General Soleimani, thanks for that information.

 

[Bucho]

They do not exactly support it but he was officially listed as a terrorist, for reasons of doing a lot of terrorist business. German citizens - not of birth and not the kind I was keen to meet on the street at night - have been abducted by U.S. intelligence and brought to places where civil rights don`t apply, and we did not find that funny indeed. A missile attack would probably not go well with the public either, I give you that. We still have WW2 moral bombing duds being excavated here on a regular basis and I can confirm that folks are not too fond of unannounced explosives.

Then again, If the U.S. or any other self respecting government were in pursuit of a terrorist on German ground, law inforcement would cooperate confidentially. With Iraq that would be questionable so the compare doesn`t quite apply.

Again, I do not dare to judge if it was wise or know whats behind it in the big picture. Nobody of us does.

 

[Hawnjigs]

"NATO’s secretary-general described the killing as “a U.S. decision. It is not a decision taken by either the global coalition nor NATO"

“This was a decision made by the United States without consulting France for national security reasons, and it's therefore an American initiative and it's their sole responsibility”

"Putin was the first world leader French President Emmanuel Macron spoke with just after learning about the drone strike on Friday. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, meanwhile, is traveling to the Kremlin to discuss the crisis in the Mideast. Merkel is heading to talks with Putin and not Trump. There is no point in talks with Trump.”

Chancellor Merkel has done the judging for you Bucho.

 

[Bucho]

"Merkel is heading to talks with Putin and not Trump. There is no point in talks with Trump.”

That pretty much sums it up. Putin is establishing himself as a stabilizing factor - which is what the world wants. He is insanely successful lately.
Coming from a culture that has no word for "judgemental"(because we do not even consider that a flaw in the first place), I have taught myself not to judge before I look through something. I have not judged anyone yet, because I have not looked through all relevant details and probably never will. I consider political decisionmaking a black box and wait for the outcome before I jump to conclusions, and even then I try to leave morals out because international stategy follows its own rules and morals will not help my understanding. 
What I can see for now is that the U.S. are withdrawing, Iran has gotten itself a bloody nose (wtf happened to that crashed plane btw??), nobody wants a war and Putin is gaining ground big.

 

[Hawnjigs]

Instead of claiming to be one Putin has proved by his actions who the "stable genius" is. "Putin gaining ground big" also means someone is losing ground. Aside from that cannot blame the EU for shifting alliances from overseas distant USA to Russia from a geographical proximity standpoint.

Supporters of the Soleimani assassination are accusing dissenters in the USA as terrorist sympathizers. I wouldn't be surprised if this has a Russia origin, like the dialogue that the Ukraine & not Russia interfered with our elections here.

Lots of Americans apparently have nothing better to do than get angry and judge the other side, and our news media fans the flames. I try to keep factually informed and emotionally detached, and fishing is my break escape. Days like Tuesday really help - 9 trout total combined est weight 86# all C&R. All on KISS red or black rabbit fur jigs.

 

[Hawnjigs]

I hope its not noteworthy that the Ukrainian International Airlines flight departing Tehran had no USA citizens onboard.

 

[Jig Man]

The Iranians have been killing us since 79, appeasement and bribery didn't work. It is time to try something else!

 

[Jig Man]

And Bucho, if your leaders complete the pipeline with Russia, I hope they don't cut your gas of in the dead of winter... Like he does to his own people and neighbors when they don't behave.

And it is interesting that Iran refuses to release the evidence, such good citizens that they are!

 

[Bucho]

Days like Tuesday really help - 9 trout total combined est weight 86# all C&R.  All on KISS red or black rabbit fur jigs.

While I am happy for you for this exceptional catch, I feel sort of angry that the baltic sea is so badly overfished that I consider a herring fed brown of 6lbs catch of the year. Such figures should belong to a large open wate full of shrimp and herring rather than a meagre stream -which makes it even more impressive! :icon14:

I wouldn`t go so far to speak of "shifting" alliances, Merkel in particular is no friend of Putin at all. It is save to say though that the cold war order has softened up. Many east Germans and their ventures have much closer ties to Russia than to the west. That being said, the first months of WW2 are still very present in the minds of our east european neighbours and the annection of the Krim and east Ukraine has brought bad memories back to life. Especially the ex - USSR baltic countries also have strong Russian Minorities, and not only the Finns know that while the russian view on the world is by nature a defensive one, they would not hesitate to stretch their safety buffer zone to the english channel if you give them half a chance. Easter nato partner like Poland generally fear today`s Germans reluctantness to war more than the oposite. That being said, Finnland is a fine example of how to get along with Russia by respecting their safety issues without going to bed with them.