A Non-Partisan Tax "Reform" Evaluation

[Hawnjigs]

Straight forward bare bones.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/will-tax-cuts-spur-american-economy-maybe-time-machine-100008514.html

 

[hookup]

I've seen so many different interpretations of this tax bill I don't know what is fact

And to lazy to find it online & read the 429 pages

 

[Hawnjigs]

Probably few if any lawmakers had the time to completely examine the tax bill either. Rushed out of committee straight to a vote without discussion.

Am I the only one considering what REAL tax reform benefiting the working class could focus on? For example:

1. Tax capital gains, dividends, & interest as ordinary incomes - Americans surviving paycheck to paycheck, many with credit card debt, don't have extra discretionary income to afford investments.

2. Close offshore tax avoidance loopholes, and bring the money back to the USA.

3. Reduce the tax % of the lower brackets and increase that of the upper. Workers will have more $ to spend back into the economy, & the rich will still be rich.

4. If we must reduce the corporate tax, lets start with a smaller increment of say 5% and examine the economic effects. The smackdown to 20% from 35% appears to be BLATANT PAY TO PLAY by crony stooge lawmakers !!! What happened to concern about the deficit ?

5. Pursuant to above 4. investigate the financial & asset holdings of lawmakers, and their sources. Heck, starting with the President and cabinet, Senators, and Representatives thats only about 600 - FBI could git er dun within a week.

But hey whats the latest on Trump & Hillary ?

 

[Hawnjigs]

From Fox News today:

"House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., and the Republican Party seem intent on punishing a key part of their base – older Americans. Ryan announced Wednesday that in 2018 the Republicans will be ready to put Medicare on the chopping block to pay for tax cuts. And those tax cuts are aimed at corporations and the rich – not the middle-class."

 

[Hawnjigs]

The fake "conservative" Republicans have finally revealed their agenda, dropping their pretense as champions of the middle class.

Too bad our only hope of opposition, the Democrats, are a bunch of snowflake liberals.

OK, guess I'm done.

 

[Jig Man]

Hawn, I guess your first mistake was trusting the government. Republican or democrat, they are all a bunch of crooks and liars! I would like to be proved wrong...

 

[Hawnjigs]

Should I then shut up and do nothing?  Despite multiple polls reflecting only 1/3 of Americans supporting the tax "reform" bill, Republican lawmakers in a straight party line vote are ramming the bill thru as a political victory IGNORING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.  And what percentage of Americans are likely to support Medicare cuts?

Maybe I've only got a squeak, but it will be heard, just not on this forum anymore.

 

[hookup]

No

Never shut up

Good thing about America is you can make your voice heard

Back to the thread - only tax that makes sense to me is a flat tax where everyone pays the say percentage of their income

 

[duffy]

Got this in an email long but pretty good.

[font=Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally, an explanation I can relate to:  Beer.[/font]


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100... If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

- The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

- The fifth would pay $1.

- The sixth would pay $3.

- The seventh would pay $7.

- The eighth would pay $12.

- The ninth would pay $18.

- The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.  "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your 
daily beer by $20".  Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so the first four men were unaffected.  They would still drink for free.  But what about the other six men?  How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33.  But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he  suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3... (33% saving).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7... (28% saving).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12... (25% saving).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18... (22% saving).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59... (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before.  And the first four continued to drink for free.

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man.  He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he received ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man.  "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2?  The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth man and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him.  But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.  They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.  The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.  In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

 

[Bucho]

Got this in an email long but pretty good.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man.  He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he received ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man.  "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2?  The wealthy get all the breaks!"

And this is why even today a 1.99€ bottle of Aldi house brand bubbly includes "sparkling wine tax" that had been imposed on the "rich" champaign drinkers back in 1902 to fund the imperial fleet programme. It is virtually impossible to lower taxes here in Germany once they had been imposed because arguably the belly of the onion would always benefit more than the lower tip.

Duffy I love your example. There`s just one thing: When the community of Ockersheim was highlighted as home of then-to-be former chancellor Helmut Kohl, it earned itself a questionable fame for its substantial financial problems back in the early 90ties. It is an extremely wealthy neighbourhood that hostes practically only millionairs. And they just don`t pay income taxes. :beat-up:

Appaerently, it is not the wealthy who get all the breaks. Its the filthy rich who do. You left out the 11th man. What does the bar keeper drink? 

B.t.w. both BMW and Volkswagen estimate a cool billion each from these tax cuts. Not all of the German branded cars in lower Manhatten that your president is so upset about have been imported. These cuts put significant pressure on the world wide corporate tax competition - which might actually help draw investments, even employment into the U.S.

I am not afraid though that our country will sustain its high standard of tax financed research and education that allows it a competetiveness which results in a traditionally "unfair" foreign trade surplus.